Comment from D
Hi, its D from your Human Sexuality class. I wanted to talk about circumcision. I feel that many people have their children circumcised because it is current mindset of the average American. If you ask a lot of woman if they would rather a circumcised penis — they would say yes. Why? They give a list of reasons. Such as:
– I don’t know if he cleans it properly
– I don’t like the way it looks
– and many more
Some woman won’t even perform oral sex on an uncircumcised man. I think this can definitely cause a problem in the relationship later down the line. Suppose you aren’t immediately intimate and you don’t say that you aren’t circumcised. Then she finds out and refuses to perform oral sex on you? I mean that’s kind of rough.
Uncircumcised Penises are also thought to be nasty by many, just because. I think this is basically why a lot of people get their kids circumcised. Its socially accepted.
One reason (that makes sense to me) is to save time. If you have extra skin, that’s extra cleaning, and no one likes the words extra and cleaning in the same sentence. I would compare that to someone that’s morbidly obese (kinda drastic). A morbidly obese person has to clean between all the folds they have when they shower. It takes more time than if an average sized person would. On a smaller scale, I would imagine it would be the same for an uncircumcised penis.
One last thing. People augment their bodies in many different ways. Tanning, bleaching, perming, botox, nose jobs, yada yada. I mean, I personally don’t agree with most of it, but I most definitely do not agree with someone making such a decision for a baby.
That’s basically what was on my mind. :-)
Response from Dr. Pinhas
D, thanks for posting. We are circumcision crazy in America. If you follow the religious doctrines set forth in Judaism and Islam, religious ritual dictates the practice. With the exception of balanitis ( inflammation to the glans penis) and phimosis ( constriction), two limited medical conditions that would require circumcision as a solution, the evidence may not justify “the nip and tuck” on newborns given the real risks of infection and hemorrhaging. (Some studies in Africa suggest that circumcision may prevent the spread of HIV; the jury may still be out on this issue).
You bring up what really may be at issue for Americans, and that is cultural conformity and similarity- not medical necessity or hygiene. Some mothers may not want to continually push down the foreskin to clean the smegma because they fear overstimulating the toddler. Other mothers want their baby boy to have a penis that looks like their husbands. Still others may not want to expose their children to ridicule in places where nudity is standard. ( Middle/High school locker rooms can be cruel places). Also at issue, is that American women are typically accustomed to the “undressed” penis, while European women favor the “dressed” version. It is all a matter of what one is exposed to over the course of time.
If you have developed a respectful and mutual relationship with a woman, it always serves you well to talk about sex first before you “hook up”( whatever that may mean to you). There is something liberating about discussing mutual fears and concerns about fellatio and cunnilingus in an honest and open way. For every anxiety a man has about himself and his body, a woman can match him with equal fears and concerns. When you realize that you are on an equal playing field, you can both move into orality comfortably in spite of a little skin.
The uncircumcised American man who bucks the trend on this cultural custom and decides not to undertake an adult circumcision, is usually thoughtful, centered and secure. He is most often comfortable in his uncircumcised skin. He typically experiences himself as adequate and confident as a total person, in spite of risking rejection by some women who may believe his penis is the sum total of him. Men who exude an air of legitimate respect for themselves and their bodies gain respect from women. Anyway, it’s just skin and there is equality in erections– no one can see the difference!
Comment from Jacob
The general consensus in the literature regarding circumcision and lower rates of HIV transmission is based upon some very good research and data collection. I can say with confidence that circumcision under such circumstances is very advisable. Now, regarding the risks of infection and hemorrhaging, the irony is these are far more likely events in third world countries. Still, it is true that social norms internalized by most people in the US influences the decision making process in favor of circumcision being performed. Then again, the Jews also had a law to cook meat thoroughly and avoid certain foods that ended up carrying higher risks of spreading potentially deadly infectious organisms. The same might be said of circumcision, where in earlier times it was more imperative to circumcise a newborn male when hygienic practices were far more limited than they are today. Keep in mind that boys who are not circumcised must pay closer attention to cleaning their genitals. Either way, circumcision is a personal choice of the parents.
Oh hey Valerie, like your blog!
Response from Dr. Pinhas
Jacob, it is always good hearing from you. You are such a wealth of solid, reliable information. Thanks for posting.
The article is usefull for me. I’ll be coming back to your blog.
The best information i have found exactly here. Keep going Thank you
I really like your post. Does it copyright protected?
Hello. I think the article is really interesting. I am even interested in reading more. How soon will you update your blog?
I found this question or comment from D rather interesting. Perhaps the reason American women, especially younger women generally dislike an “undressed” penis is because they are not accustomed to them. If they were more educated, sexually, they would be more comfortable with them. They would no longer think of it as being dirty or gross given you have good hygiene as you should no matter if you are circumcised are not. On another note, I believe it should be the decision of the child once they are old enough to decide if they want to get circumcised or not. I don’t think parents should make that choice for them just because their parents did it to them. As for the reason of getting circumcised to prevent HIV, I don’t particularly buy it. The best way to prevent HIV is to educate your kids about sex and protection. Which, parents who are circumcising their children for reasons other than religious beliefs or medical problems are probably going to be too uncomfortable to have that discussion in the first place. Also, I have heard that circumcision decreases the sensitivity of the penis by as much as 75%. Is this true?
The data that I am aware of is subjective which means that it can be skewed depending upon the men sampled. Logically there may be some truth to this…. but let’s leave the question out there to hear from others.
Alex,
thank you for your comment. As per your statement regarding HIV infection, it is well documented in many years of literature. (2 decades or so)If you use google scholar, google books or your local college/public library system, you will find an enormous wealth of information regarding this topic: statistical significance, epidemiology, and rate occurence between circumcised and non-circumcised males.
Ultimately, from a cultural perspective it is the choice of the parents, whether to circumcise or not, and most medical doctors do recommend it. Waiting for the baby to grow old enough to make the decision is not really giving them the choice either, as at that point they have become accustomed to being uncircumcised, and have internalized the valuses thereof. Some may decide to get circumcised, but it is far easier for circumcision to be performed on newborns than older males.
In South Africa circumcision is a critical care medical procedure where HIV infection rates are greatly reduced as a result of circumcision, high degree of correlation)showing as much as a 60% reduction.The CDC also provides excellent free access to peer reviewed journals and current research on disease pathology, epidemiology, risk factors, prevalence, incidence, and preventative measures too.
References:
Auvert B., Taljaard D.,Lagarde E.,Tambekou J., Sitta R.,Puren A.(September, 2006) Retrieved September 11, 2009 from http://www.plosmedicine.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pmed.0020298.
White, Richard G; Glynn, Judith R; Orroth, Kate K; Freeman, Esther E; Bakker, Roel; Weiss, Helen A; Kumaranayake, Lilani; Habbema, J Dik F; Buvé, Anne; Hayes, Richard J. (2008) Retrieved September 11, 2009 from http://journals.lww.com/aidsonline/pages/articleviewer.aspx?year=2008&issue=09120&article=00019&type=fulltext
Valerie, having looked at the statistical correlations, the random sampling, the large population sizes, the repeatability from multiple research studies,and empirical observations, I am confident in saying the high degree of correlations, and trend lines are not skewed, and are within allowable error bars. The averages, of course have a significant range, however, the low ends are still of great statistical significance.
Final response on this topic for awhile, while others post; first on a personal note: As a bisexual male, I have had sexual encounters of all kinds with both circumcised and uncircumcised males. I am circumcised. I have seen no evidence to support such a notion, unless there is an error in the surgical procedure. I enjoy sex with my wife immensely and I enjoyed sex with my uncircumcisd/circumcised male lovers as well.
Now the official primary, peer reviewed journal quote, which addresses the circumcision/sensitivity issue:
Abstract
PurposeEvidence concerning the effect of circumcision on sexual function is lacking. Men circumcised as adults are potentially in a unique position to comment on the effect of a prepuce on sexual intercourse. We examine sexual function outcomes in men who have experienced sexual intercourse in the uncircumcised and circumcised states.
Materials and MethodsMen 18 years old or older when circumcised were identified by billing records during a 5-year period at an academic medical center. Medical charts were reviewed for confirmation of the procedure and to identify the indication(s). These men were surveyed to assess erectile function, penile sensitivity, sexual activity and overall satisfaction. Data were analyzed using paired t tests to compare category scores before and after circumcision.
ResultsA total of 123 men were circumcised as adults. Indications for circumcision included phimosis in 64% of cases, balanitis in 17%, condyloma in 10%, redundant foreskin in 9% and elective in 7%. The response rate was 44% among potential responders. Mean age of responders was 42 years at circumcision and 46 years at survey. Adult circumcision appears to result in worsened erectile function (p = 0.01), decreased penile sensitivity (p = 0.08), no change in sexual activity (p = 0.22) and improved satisfaction (p = 0.04). Of the men 50% reported benefits and 38% reported harm. Overall, 62% of men were satisfied with having been circumcised.
ConclusionsOur findings may help urologists better counsel men undergoing circumcision as adults. Prospective studies are needed to better understand the relationship between circumcision and sexual function. function.http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0022534705650987.
Sensitivity in the glans penis is in the eye of the beholder. Jacob, once again thank you for providing us with specific data as well as your personal perspective.
Thank you, Valerie for having me:)
Still, HIV risk is a far more important consideration than glans penis sensitivity by my estimation.
I think what the other posters have said is very interesting. However, I must say that I see nothing wrong with an uncircumcised penis. A circumcised penis can be just as “unclean” as an uncircumcised one is thought to be if the person doesn’t have good hygiene. Besides, if you are emotionally involved with the circumcised/uncircumcised male, there shouldn’t be so much emphasis on their external appearance anyway. Personally I think circumcision is unnecessary, painful, and strange – why perform surgery that is basically cosmetic right at birth? Must be traumatic. These are just my two cents, but I will surely not be circumcising my sons unless some fantastic benefit is discovered.
Hii Dr.Pinhas, :)
I was waiting for a good time to ask my mom about circumcision and I finally did!! I asked “why only me had circumcision late and had to feel all the pain, and my lucky brother had it right after when he was born so that he doesnt even remember..?” then, my mam answered “ohh,, when you were born, yours was too small, they couldnt perform circumcision on you so we decide to do it later for your cleanliness and to prevent disease from it.” So I was like.. ohh thats embarrassing.. haha yea.. I still clearly remember what doctors were doing even 8 years has passed..
J
It sounds like an older age circumcision ( as a young child vs. infant) was traumatic to you. You have apparently taken your mother’s words ” yours was too small….) to heart. All infants’ pensis are small– it’s relative. You may be applying adult standards onto childhood attribution. But is sounds like this has wounded you, not unlike the procedure done later in your life. Has this had any psychological consequences for you?
this is (harry)
when we talk about circumcision, i always think that doesnt matter whether you have circumcised penis or not. as we discussed in class, as long as the person is satisfied with the way he has it. not to dishonor or insult any religions’ prospectives, the way i feel is, if you want your son to get circumcised only because of religious virtuality, its not valid reason because if your son get extra foreskin, it meant to be. if it was really unnecessary, who ever god you believe in, he/she wouldn’t give to you. similarly, clitoroidectomy in some cultures, if that body part meant to be sinful, god wouldn’t have give to you. moreover, if your partner really loves you, she wouldn’t/shouldn’t care about whether your penis is circumcised or not. another fact, if you be aware of protecting yourself, there are very small amount of chances to affected with STD ot other illnesses
This situation is familiar to me. It is possible to discuss.
Of course you can discuss this on the blog. By all means. What is your point of view?
Hey all, I just registered on this awesome discussion board and wished to say hey there! Have a excellent day!
You have a nice day as well… any comments about circumcision pro/con? or any thoughts about any of the other blog topics
I am from the English speaking Caribbean and circumcision is performed as a matter of medical necessity and not for religious or cultural customs unlike other parts of the world. Primarily, circumcision is performed mainly on boys who are unable to completely retract the foreskin. In such cases parents are encouraged especially when bathing the child to attempt retracting the foreskin and ensure the penis is cleaned and thoroughly dried thereafter. In cases where it is impossible to retract the foreskin (phimosis), circumcision is only considered where treatment has failed or is unavailable.
On few occasions circumcision has had to be performed on adolescent and adult males who experience painful sexual intercourse due to bruising. Of course bruising could be caused and or aggravated due to inadequate vaginal lubrication so the attending physician would have to consider all possible causes before recommending surgery. Generally, it is a procedure which has been accepted as necessary as long as it will help the individual to lead a more comfortable life free from penis disorders.
Interestingly, studies carried out have suggested that male circumcision reduces HIV infection, HPV in men (the types most often associated with cervical cancer) and genital herpes. Of course ongoing research could either support or totally discount such suggestions.
I’m indian and my we don’t do circumcision and honestly i couldn’t tell you how it feels to have a circumcised penis but i feel if i had a comparison i would like a non circumcised penis because it just feels good during sex. and in general. Non of my girlfriends in the past noticed it and it wasn’t a big deal.
I remember hating the fact that I was uncircumcised. Growing up, I wanted so badly to have a “normal” penis. Now I’m older and have come to realize that having an uncircumcised penis isn’t that bad, at all. It works and performs just as well as a “normal” penis and I think that’s all that matters. I have yet to receive any complaints from the opposite sex and if it just so happens that I do, so what? As far as cleanliness, it’s entirely possible for a circumcised penis to be just as clean or unclean as an uncircumcised penis. In my opinion, it all depends on who it belongs to. In regard to the prevention of HIV and other diseases, I understand the logic behind it but until scientists find significant data in favor of circumcision, I refuse to believe that it’s better simply because it’s the norm.
I originally posted this years ago in your class and I forgot until today about this blog. I’m glad I found it because its full of great insight. This is still a popular topic with alot I my friends and I’m sure it’s going to be relevant for years to come.
Americans don’t know how easy it is to care for an uncircumcised child. The myth that you have to pull back a child’s foreskin was invented in 1941 by Allan F. Guttmacher, a doctor who promoted mass circumcision, and is painful and harmful because the glans and foreskin are typically attached by a membrane, usually almost until puberty and some times more. The proper care for a child is to just wash the outside, do not pull the foreskin, and to avoid anything other than mild soaps -which should be completely rinsed- or better yet avoid soaps in the area. We don’t use soap inside our mouths or inside women’s private areas.
Regarding HIV, there are some flaws in the studies, for example the number of individuals lost to follow up was more than 3X the total number of seroconverted, and some other confounding factors. Also, typically they don’t mention that this only applies to female to male transmission of the virus. Even if the science was solid, this is still a decision that could be taken by the adult after evaluating his lifestyle.
We don’t need studies to know that lips and nipples contribute to pleasure. Everything about the male organ has to do with either urination or sex. If we have doubts whether the foreskin contributes to sex, why don’t we ask uncircumcised males?